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The Otherworld Project • View topic - It's time to get colonial

It's time to get colonial

Development of the project in general.
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Re: It's time to get colonial

Postby Alex » Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:37 pm

I took the liberty of illustrating what you described onto the map. I threw in a port city/concession in the Baygil Empire to make this set up a little more plausible, seeing how the southern colonies would otherwise be very difficult to reach some kind of friendly stopover port on the way. Other than that minor thing, I think it's pretty good.
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Re: It's time to get colonial

Postby Michael-on-Ryde » Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:29 pm


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Re: It's time to get colonial

Postby Steven » Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:00 am

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Re: It's time to get colonial

Postby Sébastien » Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:41 am

Looking good so far :D

I would say that there's going to be a lot of Hong Kong like cities scattered over the western coasts of Lestria and Ascesia, owned by the Messenian GPs. There might be similar examples of Joriscian HK on the eastern coast of Lestria, but since the Joriscians have a direct way to the Seranias (I mean, no continents in between), they don't really need these kind of ports.

An interesting hotspot will be the fomerly named Freta Mano strait, between Lestria and Ascesia, where all the GPs shipping lanes converge. There's potential for HK-like holdings there too, and it seems to me that SK would be in an excellent position to yield the most power of this region. I hope Lois can give us some ideas about where she thinks her colonies would be :)

 
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Re: It's time to get colonial

Postby Michael-on-Ryde » Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:13 am

Those straits in #89 (which I tentatively renamed the Boğazlama Strait, from *Turkish boğazlamak, "to strangle"), always seemed to me to be prime candidates for some kind of treaty-port arrangement as in late imperial China. The Messenian powers are not going to stand for any uppity natives hindering their interests here! So, yes, I'm in for that.

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Re: It's time to get colonial

Postby Welshy » Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:18 am

Azophin's colonial ventures were I think largely confined to the Seranias, specifically Serania Minor. Vince and I discussed some areas of interest a while ago in Serania Minor but I can't remember what (if any) the conclusions were. The Neritsovids we've established as having colonial interests in the Seranias, but since these were predominantly run by merchant interests (which backed the Terophites) they were probably mostly lost in the 1700s. Anyway, I'd like to vaguely indicate my interest in essentially arbitrary chunks of the Seranias.

Edit: Also, a note on names - whilst obviously using native words as the basis for names makes sense, we can expect significantly anglicised variants, fossilised mispronunciations and so on. The further back they were discovered, the more butchered they'll be. Even in the name's language of origin it will probably no longer be identical with the more commonly used noun it was originally derived from... just look at English place names.

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Re: It's time to get colonial

Postby Kolja_LS » Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:44 pm


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Re: It's time to get colonial

Postby Vince » Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:21 pm

Sorry for taking so long to reply here. I just wanted to bring up again the vague understanding that we had about dividing Serania Minor -- I think the general idea was that the south is Terophite, the north is Azophine and the west is Agamari, with some minor holdings and overflow between regions scattered around. Does that still hold?
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Re: It's time to get colonial

Postby Kolja_LS » Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:30 pm

That sounds fine to me!

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Re: It's time to get colonial

Postby Sébastien » Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:05 pm


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Re: It's time to get colonial

Postby Sébastien » Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:38 pm

Here's a map summarising the colonies placements as of tonight:
Colonies20112012.png
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As one can see, there's room for more claims, while still including those by Luto and Sk.

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Re: It's time to get colonial

Postby Steven » Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:21 pm

I figure it makes sense to hold off offering up a second list of colonial request until Shaun and Lois would weigh in. That being said, with that "claim map" I see other areas that make sense for Odann's empire. :twisted:
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Re: It's time to get colonial

Postby Sébastien » Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:49 pm

Yes, they need to have a say. But as you see, there's indeed lots of room to penetrate in the Seranian interior, as we have only placed some interests on the coasts. Also, in the end, the zones will probably not be so clear-cut, and we might end with one nation's small holdings splattered inside large holdings from another nation, which is noted as the "claimant" now. There's plenty of room for a complex geography of settlements, especially as economic interests shifted over centuries from some types of commodities to another (example: in the 17th century, growing cane sugar and digging gold up, in the 21st century, pumping oil and mining all sorts of ores).

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Re: It's time to get colonial

Postby Alex » Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:46 pm

Bump

So what would be the similarities and differences to colonization on Arden compared to how it played out in the RW?
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Re: It's time to get colonial

Postby Michael-on-Ryde » Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:19 pm

I'm still trying to find the details, but I can recall early discussions with Lois in which she was leaning towards a less confrontational and more co-operative approach by the Siur polities to the issue of colonisation - I imagined it in broad outline as being similar to the British relationship with the princely states of India, with the Siursk advancing their cause through deals with the local chieftains rather than outright imposition of force. I like the distinction, given that Arlatur is too wedded to the idea of egalitarianism by the colonial era, although it has its own risks - it may take longer to reach the tipping point where you're functionally in charge, but with (probably) less bloodshed, although the payback when the natives realise they've been effectively duped into yielding a large part of their sovereignty could be brutal. That's the general approach that I have in mind for the one Helmin colony, although the locals are fierce (I'm looking at doing more with the American Indian tropes that I touched on in Thora - the more so since the locals are probably still at "pre-Columbian" cultural levels at first contact), and the presence of the polytheistic Pyranism is a further complication, so there's no guarantee it will work as it did in v1's Namuit or Vatrask.

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Re: It's time to get colonial

Postby Sébastien » Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:51 pm


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Re: It's time to get colonial

Postby Steven » Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:55 am

During my master's program I took a course called "Empire" (yes, it was totally awesome). One of the books we studied was a monograph entitled Lords of All the World, or something along those lines. The main angle of the book is the religious basis was critical to the foundation of early modern European empires. Empires and essentially imperialism, as we have come to understand it, had its origins in a religious crusade. The creation of indigenous peoples as inferior others stems from their depiction as godless heathens. There is even a small discussion that the Kingdom of Spain's experience in wars against Muslim states gave them a great deal of the intellectual and state-infrastructure to build a global empire. This massive preamble is by way of saying that I think a theocracy like Odann might have imperial policies that are very familiar to us (or 17th century Spaniards). Early modern Spanish imperialism might be a nice parallel for Odann given the intertwine between argan and state.

Discrimination may be broken down between believers and heathens. Pyranists and other non-Cairons might face a condition like second-class citizenship. However, I don't think this would be a very large contingent of the population. I'd like to perhaps experiment with something akin to Latin American cultures, with their deeply ingrained Catholicism.

Perhaps empires in Arden resemble Classical era empires, i.e. commercial/political unions with very little cultural connection. I find this difficult to imagine in the wake of the nation-state, but as an individual living in a world of racism and nationalism such a thought is difficult to imagine. Am I tangent-ing too much at this point?
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Re: It's time to get colonial

Postby Vince » Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:02 pm

I have made a draft of the map of Serania Minor here: http://i.imgur.com/Jy0IB.jpg

Serania Major should be coming soon.
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Re: It's time to get colonial

Postby Vince » Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:00 pm

General map (excluding only Lestria):

http://otherworldproject.com/political%20map%203.png
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Re: It's time to get colonial

Postby Sébastien » Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:08 pm

Vince and I have been discussing the question of the population of the Seranias. It's an important issue, and our current conclusion is that it would be at maximum equal to that of Messenia and Outer Joriscia combined.

This is so because, contrary to Earth, there was not strong incentive for people from all over the world to move there (no USA), each countries are colonising their own possessions without taking immigrants from other countries (or only to a small amount), the colonial population's birth-rate is unlikely to be enormous compared to the metropole, and some countries will have diverging interests into sending people there. For example, Vince mentioned that would be a moderate immigration from Vaestic countries, with religious motivations adding to economic ones (merchants & cities fleeing the ruling class). Individual colonisers will certainly vary, but in the end, if you send a subset of your population, it's unlikely that this subset will become larger than the original one which continued to grow a similar rates!

At the moment, we have the following estimations: 650 million in Messenia, 800 million* in Outer Joriscia. So that makes a total of 1.45 billion. Note that I wrote "at max". The population might in the end be smaller, especially if the density of population in the Seranias is really low compared to the mainlands.



Open to debate :D

[Edit] - I might revise Savam's population (currently 101 million) up, after a discussion that it might be a contender with Lutoborsk for the largest civilised nation, based on Savam's advantageous geography compared to the Lutoborsk. That's push Messenia to 700-ish millions, for a 1.5 total; stay tuned.

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