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The Otherworld Project • View topic - The LANGUAGES MAP

The LANGUAGES MAP

Development of the project in general.
 
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Re: The LANGUAGES MAP

Postby Miles » Tue May 24, 2011 8:46 pm

If you speak Dutch, then I'd be very welcome for some help when it comes to making my nation, if that's OK with you.

 
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Re: The LANGUAGES MAP

Postby Pepijn » Tue May 24, 2011 8:56 pm

@Miles: I'd be happy to help out

@ Welshy: Scots is an Anglic language of the Anglo-Frisian branch, and so is English. Now that is a language continuum. Frisian is more closely related to those two than Dutch. For the last time, Frisian is not a variation of Dutch. We have Lower Saxonian, which is between Dutch and German as a dialect continuum, we have Brabantian as a variation of Dutch, but Frisian is something completely else. I know the differences.

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Re: The LANGUAGES MAP

Postby Sébastien » Tue May 24, 2011 9:47 pm

Let's not debate for an infinite time on language classification, should we? Let's just make sure languages are placed in a plausible arrangement. We are not professional linguists, nor can fluency in one language allow us to debate proffessionally on this language's exact origin and classification, which are eventually irrelevant to OWP.

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Re: The LANGUAGES MAP

Postby Sébastien » Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:35 pm

An attempt at more details in the Romance area (forget to put some occitant in southern French):
Romance_lang.png
Romance_lang.png (23.58 KiB) Viewed 1196 times

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Re: The LANGUAGES MAP

Postby Sébastien » Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:02 pm

Another version, after Welshy's comments:
Romance_lang2.png
Romance_lang2.png (24.81 KiB) Viewed 1191 times

 
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Re: The LANGUAGES MAP

Postby Ben » Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:32 am

Okay. So here's something interesting...

While checking up on a possible country to play, I looked into 7 and its neighbors, specifically 5, which is being proposed as Agamar. I love what Kolja has already worked up for 5, but I found an interesting little oddity that might create a problem, but I believe might be a really interesting story if we do it right. But I would need some input on this.

Kolja suggested a language known by the people of Agamar as Ranic, which would be spoken as the primary language in 7. The suggestion was that Ranic is RW Estonian, which would be fantastic except for one issue...in the RW, Estonian was heavily influenced by the Germanic languages, specifically German. In fact, it is estimated that nearly a fifth of Estonian vocabulary is from German. So the question is, how did *German influence *Estonian so heavily when they are practically on opposite sides of the world?

I could see that either 7 has traveled far and wide, picking up many different words here and there, but specifically a lot of words from their journeys to that area of the *Germanic world years ago. Conversely, the *German cultures might have spent time on the island, either as visitor or conqueror. I personally would prefer a friendly or at least non-violent reason for the language influence, but I just thought I would point this out and see what people think.

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Re: The LANGUAGES MAP

Postby Welshy » Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:01 am

Our general policy so far has been to just kick out the more obviously German words and replace them with native cognates. German influence on Estonian is far too widespread to put down to any phenomenon other than intensive language contact, which is obviously impossible, and the borrowings are probably too early to be plausibly due to later contact. I've tried to avoid the scenario of last time where the Germanic languages end up spread out on either side of a region as wide as China, and a German-speaking presence there (other than traders later on, but there'd be plenty of traders from all sorts of linguistic groups so there's no reason why German would become predominant) is pretty much impossible.

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Re: The LANGUAGES MAP

Postby Kolja_LS » Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:51 am

I agree with the idea of degermanicising the language as far as possible. I will be doing the same for Agar (aka finnish). For instance Agamar has a President which apparently in RW finnish would be Presidentti. On Arden the official term for the President will be Puhēnjohtaja (literally 'Chairman') however, since the former is obviously too latinate. And so we can proceed with any terms that need changing, there will often be alternative 'native' terms and where there aren't we can always create them.

 
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Re: The LANGUAGES MAP

Postby Ben » Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:06 pm

We can obviously do whatever we like with the languages, but if we change them significantly, then we will not really be using the languages themselves, but rather using them as a basis for our own. I understand that we have done this and I think it is a great idea, but even an expert on Estonian (which I definitely am not) would be hard pressed to replace every word of German origin in Estonian with another of more Ugric origin.

Why would it be impossible to explain a strong influence of Germanic languages with Estonian, even on Arden? There are several RW examples of languages that have heavily influenced other languages over the years, despite the fact that they were on the other side of the world. The Spanish influence on Filipino could be an example of conquest. The influence of Arabic on world languages could be an example of religion or cultural influence. The influence of English on world languages could be an example of conquest, culture and economics as another example. There are lots of reasons why *German could have had such a significant impact on *Estonian on Arden. I would suggest that it might be too early to simply say that it could not or should not happen.

I think there could be some great opportunities for RP here. For example, why are 7 and 5 different countries in the first place? Do they have differing idiologies, cultures, faith traditions? Perhaps a group of *German-speaking missionaries established a presence in 7 years ago. Perhaps a *German-speaking presence occupied the island for some time. Perhaps 5 has been traveling for years along the Messenic Coast and has picked up a lot of the culture from that location over the years. There could be legitimate reasons for the linguistic influence. I think trying to explain them could make an interesting story. Is anyone else interested in exploring these options?

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Re: The LANGUAGES MAP

Postby Kolja_LS » Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:00 pm


 
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Re: The LANGUAGES MAP

Postby Ben » Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:43 pm

I was actually considering the possibility that 7 had had a strong influence in a *German-speaking country at some point, rather than the other way around. But that usually means that the invading language influences the other more than the other way around. Perhaps it would be easier to remove the "German-ness" from Estonian in TOP, but it was an interesting idea to bounce around in any case. I suppose it is very much me attempting to make sense of the language map, which can never be perfect considering that these languages did not originate on Arden in the first place.

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Re: The LANGUAGES MAP

Postby Welshy » Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:38 pm


 
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Re: The LANGUAGES MAP

Postby Ben » Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:58 pm

For the sake of argument, I might suggest Indonesian as a language that was affected significantly by Arabic without being very close to the areas where Arabic was traditionally spoken. The point I was trying to make is that it could be possible to make such a connection a reality in Arden and might be interesting to try to reconcile, though it would likely be difficult to do so. In effect, I was trying to see if anyone wanted to try to make a legitimate reason for such a connection to exist. Stranger things have happened on Earth. My suggestion was that perhaps something like a connection between *German and *Estonian happened on Arden. Though I get the impression that people are not very interested in looking into something like this, so I'll just let the matter drop.

 
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Re: The LANGUAGES MAP

Postby Ben » Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:16 pm

Does anyone have an issue with using a language isolate, such as Basque, in either 34 or 33?

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Re: The LANGUAGES MAP

Postby Sébastien » Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:35 pm

I also support the fact that "Estonian" should have no Germanic influence in Arden. The languages need not to be entirely identical to their RL counterparts, we are jut using them as an helper for flavour so we don't have to redesign a complete language tree. They still need to be more or less coherent though, and having Germanic influence in Estonian goes against that.

As an exemple of this process, I can cite my efforts in the previous iteration to use only given names of Latinate origins, even old-fashioned ones or names that never got a French translation from Latin. French in Ascesia could not have been more than marginally influenced by Germanic languages in Ereana.

An isolate in 34/33 is certainly workable.

 
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Re: The LANGUAGES MAP

Postby Ben » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:22 pm

That's more than fine. It was just a thought. I asked what the community thought about the idea and I appreciate you all chiming in. I understand the concept of using the languages as a helper for flavor. But I distinctly recall that in the last incarnation of Esh, I was often corrected on my Stronish primarily because I attempted to remove any "non-German" elements from the language (primarily Celtic), which was not an easy task to begin with. I don't mind doing that again, but I would make sure that anyone who takes on a language in the future understands that a lot of people on the forums will expect the players to maintain a certain level of "purity" when it comes to their languages. At least that is what it sounds like to me. Just a suggestion.

Should I even bother asking how Ellish/English is going to work into this equation? :twisted:

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Re: The LANGUAGES MAP

Postby Shaun » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:56 pm

It's in 52.
It's like a train wreck.
Wait, no... it is a train wreck.

Kicsit olyan mintha te lennél a stricim





:monocle:

 
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Re: The LANGUAGES MAP

Postby Ben » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:58 pm

Is 52 going to be an MPN?

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Re: The LANGUAGES MAP

Postby Shaun » Wed Oct 05, 2011 12:02 am

Part of the premise is that we, as the writers, are 52-ian researchers and experts in the study of Arden; basically the Encyclopedia Ardenica staff and contributors.

So, yes, it is an mpn.
It's like a train wreck.
Wait, no... it is a train wreck.

Kicsit olyan mintha te lennél a stricim





:monocle:

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